Dubious Honour

Well, to hear the way Dames themselves actually describe it, perhaps the spraying-player has a point.

“I never actually found out which person on my team had the spray, but they were all pretty much in the same boat.”

dames_have_no_place_in_l4d

  • http://twitter.com/Super_Widget Joanna

    Creepy O.o

  • Earthbound_X

    You mean like the female character in the game called Zoey? The one people made nude mods of, to lust after?

    Fucking hypocrites.

  • http://twitter.com/The_T113 The T

    I bet this is the same person who says “I don’t understand why girls don’t like me!”

  • Anonymous

    So ridiculous.

  • http://facebook.com/deathbydd DeathbyDD

    Yes, clearly a bro-deos and sausage-fests are much preferable to the average gamer.

  • WhyleKat

    Or Rochelle, the Female character in Left 4 Dead 2…. ~_~

  • WhyleKat

    *cough*CoD*cough*Halo*cough*target-audience*cough*cough*

    Oh
    excuse me, I’m severely allergic to immaturity… Whenever I even think about
    it, my airways close up.

  • Raichu

    That article made me really happy!

    Then I made the mistake of reading the comments…

  • Anonymous

    That’s a pretty interesting article.  I’ve recently learned that (at least some) women complain about Cortana reinforcing sexist ideas.  I don’t think I saw a change in Cortana in Halo 4.  I’m not convinced by most of the arguments against Cortana, so maybe Ross and Wolfkill weren’t either.

    Also, I’d take my wife’s name if she was named “Wolfkill”.

  • http://facebook.com/deathbydd DeathbyDD

     Yea. I read some. Couldn’t read them all. So much hate. Any excuse at all to try and reverse reality, you know? The loss of absolute power does NOT equal persecution…

  • http://facebook.com/deathbydd DeathbyDD

     Nah. I don’t have any gripe with Cortana. She is clearly more powerful then the master chief and every organic put together (she seized control of covenant ships with her will). And um yeah, I’d marry a Wolfkill in a heartbeat! XD

  • Anonymous

    Yeah, Master Chief would have died long ago without Cortana telling him what to do.

    One complaint is that Cortana is literally an object which Master Chief possesses and that she can’t do anything without Master Chief letting her.  I think this mischaractizes their relationship, almost like saying litter-carriers possess their king. Or that dogs are superior to humans because humans feed them and pick up their poop.

    The other complaint is that Cortana is naked.  Since I’ve only gone through the first Halo in single player, I was all like, “she doesn’t have a body… she’s blue light in the rough shape of a lady”.  Though, now that I see they added a belly button to her, it’s harder for me to argue she isn’t naked.

    *shrug* I dunno.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/XU3BIIICFAQCIPBXXRK33MJNB4 William

    it’s almost funny (in a very sad way) that the VERY FIRST COMMENT on that article is a ‘what about the menz’ comment.

  • http://facebook.com/deathbydd DeathbyDD

     I realize its a silly argument (that people make) when they stuff like ‘there are worse things out there, why worry about this!?’…thats kind of an odd thingie to say. Sure there are worse ‘sexist’ things you could worry about, but since we’re gamers this is our domain and so it makes sense for us to champion in-game causes…no matter how insignificant it may seem to someone who does something that they feel is ‘more’ important. But really…Cortana IS a bad thing to complain about. Sure ppl will make rule 34 with her face plastered on it, but…who cares? Samus in Other M WAS an actual problem. They gave her ‘personality’ in the sense that they made her a weeping male-dependent titty baby. THATS silly. Cortana? She’s MC’s better in every way. There’s no question. Maybe she SHOULD have cloths, but you know what? I’d rather her be naked and comfortable with it then have her wear one of those Soul Calibur-styled ‘outfits’ with huge balloon breast tumors abstracting her face. ^_^

  • Anonymous

    “I realize its a silly argument…But really…Cortana IS a bad thing to complain about. ”

    Hahahaha! If find all that build-up of qualifying and understanding only to eviscerate it to be quite delicious.

    “Samus in Other M WAS an actual problem.”

    I didn’t like how Samus was portrayed in Other M, but not because I thought it was sexist.  It just relied on an overused trope in Japanese story telling that I’ve found obnoxious for years.  They like to confuse melodramatic, sad-sack internal dialogue with making a character deep or interesting.  I hated it with Shinji Ikari in NGE, and I hated it with every other iteration I’ve seen.

    By the time Other M came along, I was just disappointed and tried to tune it out.  This was not the Samus I fantasized about marrying.

    “they made her a weeping male-dependent titty baby.”

    Hahahaha!

    “She’s MC’s better in every way. There’s no question.”

    I don’t know about that. I think Master Chief is better at having internal organs.

    “ wear one of those Soul Calibur-styled ‘outfits’ with huge balloon breast tumors abstracting her face.”

    Haha!  ”Abstracting”?  Now I’m imagining Ivy with a Cubist visage.  Heh. I presume you mean, “obstructing”. ;)

    On one hand, some of the proportions and outfits in Soul Cailbur are ridiculous, on the other hand, Google “BelleChere” and “Ivy”.  Look at her Flickr photo stream.

    And while several of the characters and outfits are clearly designed as wanking material, I will say that I think there’s a better range of body type than in many games.  And they’re pretty good at giving every character non-sexualized outfits in addition to the pandering offerings.

    I’ll also mention that Voldo has a pretty sexualized outfit too, but that hits more of the creepy vibe rather than sexy.

    And I’m not the best person to judge how a big chest may interfere with fighting, but I’m already suspending my disbelief enough that I can accept Siegfried swinging around a giant sword.

  • Anonymous

    I keep finding myself fascinated by that tag.  Such interesting choices.  Why that image?  Did they go looking for it specifically, or did they stumble upon it?  Did they want to use the word “dames” from the get-go, or was the inspired after they found the picture? The way they colored the various words to create emphasis seems to have taken some thought and care.  And I love how they use two exclamation marks– clearly, one was not enough, but more than three would have been crass(?).

  • Anonymous

    “This pretty much says everything I feel about how Other M..”

    Alright, I watched the whole thing as well as the 15 minute epilogue.  I essentially feel the same way, just not to the same extremes.  I enjoyed the Prime series, but I don’t remember much about them.  I thought the “story” in Other M to be annoying, but I mostly tuned it out.

    “ Either way, a lack of organs is kind of an advantage in the whole ‘stay alive’ aspect of thingies.”

    True dat.  It’s just that what makes something an advantage or better just depends on your goals and context.

    “ Personally, I chose to dress up as the 90s Harley Quinn as opposed to the skimpier Arkham City version…”

    There ain’t nothin’ wrong with that!

    “I don’t see how girls dressing in sexy cosplay betters the gaming community or furthers the gender equality argument.”

    I wasn’t trying to make that argument.  It’s just that Ivy’s exaggerated proportions seem like they could only exist within the imagination.  But then there’s BelleChere who naturally looks like Ivy.

    I mean, you just described Ivy (presumably) as to have a monstrous body-type, but an actual human woman has the same body-type.  That doesn’t seem fair.

    “Yeah but empowering male characters is not and NEVER will be the same as dehumanizing female ones.”

    It took me a second to figure out what inspired this.  I brought up Siegfried’s sword because it also defies critical reason.  Whether it empowers or dehumanizes someone is a matter of perspective, for the most part.  I mean, I could say that wielding a giant sword raises the standards of masculinity to an unattainable height.  I could say it’s an offensive attempt to manipulate the subconscious of men by giving them an over-sized phallic substitute.

    And watch what I’ll say next! What could be more empowering than Ivy overcoming her chesty tumors to kick-ass in spite of them?

    Look, I’m not trying to convince you to like the Soul Calilbur games.  I’m not even trying to tell you you’re wrong for finding the content in the game objectionable.  I’m just getting a tad defensive when Soul Calibur is called sexist because I can’t see how that doesn’t reflect poorly on anyone who enjoys the game.

    Maybe we’re using different definitions of “sexist”, but I just don’t think it’s fair to call the games sexist.  Is it deep within the Male Gaze? Sure.  Is it disrespectful towards women? That’s arguable!  But to say that this game hates women or that it promotes the oppression of women seems like a bit of an overreach.

    I could go on, but I suppose I’ll leave it at that.

  • http://facebook.com/deathbydd DeathbyDD

     Okidok! For fans of the Metroid series and even just passerby looking for something to rant about, Other M has lots of things to be picky about. Team Ninja? REALLY? lol

    Context is important *nodnod*

    Nuthin’ wrong with wut? Cosplaying original ‘abused DC woman’ Harley or liking the skimpy revamped version? Either way its personal taste, of course. I just don’t like the (how did you say? ‘wank material?’ lol!) way they deconstructed her into this newer incarnation. Her whole existence is A. Kind of tragic comic relief and B. A conversation of domestic violence. Making her skimpier adds nothing to her character and is kinda…sick. Same as how I didn’t like how they made Ivy from SC progressively skimpier/larger breasted. Also Sonya from MK used to wear a tanktop…but apparently that was just too practical for a ‘special forces soldier’ so now she wears a…bursting denim chest piece? ^_~

    I did say it was monstrous, yes. Because she keeps inflating with each game sequel. Therefore I have to assume its some kind of cancerous tumor. I’m not dissing on big chested girls…or dudes, for that matter. In fact, I’m partial to girls myself, so its not like I don’t ‘get it’. But I have to bind myself before I go to the gym every week. I sympathize…which is precisely why I take objection to her wearing what she isn’t. XD

    Okay. The thing is, I DO like Soul Calibur games. And I like Mortal Kombat too. But I won’t play them anymore (boo-hoo, right?). You know why? Because of that stuff we just talked about. In other words, its not the harassment via mike that you get playing shooters that deters me, its the choices of the programmers themselves. I guess I must be too sensitive. But you know? I’d rather be happy playing a game then feel like every character sharing my gender is being paraded around like a sack of meat. I sincerely doubt you can say the same for the unrealistic but bad@$$ dude heroes you get to play as. Its an escape fantasy. It makes you feel GOOD. Playing Ivy and Sonya used to do that for me. Now it just makes me SICK. Thats the difference, and it has to do with the representation of genders not with my being too picky. You admit yourself its ‘deep within the Male Gaze’, so then how is it NOT sexist? Look, I don’t think its going to go and make dudes into raging misogynists. If they are, they were that way before they picked up the game. What I’m saying is this progressively heavier and heavier striptease of supposedly strong fem characters serves only to titillate men, objectify women, reinforce already prevalent (bad) stereotypes and it pushes away ‘fickle’ female gamers like me from the game and genera in general. THAT is why it and every game like it is SEXIST.
    ^_^

  • Anonymous

    “Nuthin’ wrong with wut?”

    Oh. I’m sorry I wasn’t clear.  I meant there’s nothing wrong with choosing the original Harley to dress as.  I personally prefer that incarnation because not every lady villain needs to be sexed-up too.

    “Same as how I didn’t like how they made Ivy from SC progressively skimpier/larger breasted.”

    Hm. I wasn’t aware of this evolution.  That’s disappointing and completely unnecessary.  It breaks my heart to know that they drove you away from an otherwise fun game.

    I’ve never been good at MK so I can’t speak much about it.

    “But I have to bind myself before I go to the gym every week.”

    “Bind”? That sounds awful… like something out of a Saw movie.

    “…its the choices of the programmers themselves. I guess I must be too sensitive. ”

    Naw, you’re not too sensitive. I can respect that.

    “You admit yourself its ‘deep within the Male Gaze’, so then how is it NOT sexist?”

    The Male Gaze is about the perspective being portrayed.  Because men are creating the content, you see what the men want to see.  The problem with the Male Gaze, particularly when it was brought to the forefront, is that it had a tendency to objectify women.  Women would have no role in a movie, except as a prize for the male lead, and other stuff like that.  There was (is, to a lesser extent) a clear pattern for the male creators to not give women any meaningful characterization.

    Having creations viewed through the “male” perspective (i.e. Male Gaze) isn’t inherently sexist, but it certainly can be used to push sexist ideas.

    I also want folks to not demonize all heterosexual male fantasies as sexist.  If anything is sexist about it, it’s not that it exists, it’s that it’s unproportionally represented.

    So while I think it’s clear that the Soul Cailbur is created by heterosexual men for their own tastes, with little-to-no time asking, “How will women react to this?”, thus it’s deeply within the Male Gaze, it isn’t necessarily sexist.

    I feel Soul Calibur avoids being sexist because while being a fantasy, the ladies of Soul Calibur are strong people.  They have personalities all different from each other.  They all have their own stories and motivations.  The game doesn’t display a hatred for women, nor do I think it’s necessarily disrespectful to women.

    I mean, it’s disrespectful in the sense that they’re neglecting a (sizable?) portion of their female audience, but nothing can be everything for everyone.

    Still, it sounds like Namco wouldn’t need to have done much to keep the likes of you, so that’s pretty hard to defend.

    Also, I’ve been meaning to get your opinion on something.  I tried looking through the Disqus system for a way to directly message you, but I couldn’t find one.  Instead, I saw that your Facebook page was linked to your Disqus profile, so I attempted contact there.

  • http://facebook.com/deathbydd DeathbyDD

    Okidok. Yup nothing wrong at all with heterosexuality. Its when the various power fantasies are incorporated into every medium and game that my eye starts to twitch a bit. Whats more there are many ‘macho’ men in my Life that object to be pandered to in this way on every level. I can’t imagine that kind of sexism is just objectifying to women, its also spoon-feeding men things that some of them find offensive—if not in content then by the implication that they should all just melt because of that content’s incorporation (usually at the expense of realism and immersion). In short, this pseudo porn should be kept for in its own world, not leaked into every game thereby adding fluff for some but spoiling it for others. ^_^

  • Anonymous

    I essentially agree.

  • http://facebook.com/deathbydd DeathbyDD

     I’m essentially glad you agree :P

  • http://twitter.com/ButtercupSaiyan BCS

     I think Harley Quinn’s patchwork/split look is far more iconic anyway, the Arkham City one is ridiculous. I saw it and I was like, “That’s not Harley!”

    She’s always had that cool jester look and it’s wonderful.

  • http://facebook.com/deathbydd DeathbyDD

     Thats right. Original Harely outfit all da way! <3
    I didn't like how in the games batman goes out of his way to repeatedly say 'she's never been too bright'. Which is hogwash, of course. Plus he has never been mean to her. Quite the opposite actually (episode: Harley's Holiday). Also, making DC's token 'abused woman' (episode: Harley and Ivy) look tantalizing by skimming down her attire is kinda seriously lame.

  • Mygaffer

    Weird, maybe I’ve just been lucky but I’ve played a good amount of L4D2 and played with several women and never heard any abuse hurled at them. I assumed the cooperative nature made people less pricktastic towards their fellow players.
    In fact I am the person who said the worse thing, our team was getting torn apart, trying to get into the terminal at the end of the airport level and many of us were down. One of my teammates asked for the female player who was playing with us to go save him. I was dead and watching the players, I saw she was totally mobbed by zombies so naturally I said on voice chat “She’s getting gang-raped…*awkward pause*… so to speak”.
    I was too embarrassed to apologize.

  • http://facebook.com/deathbydd DeathbyDD

    Did she shoot her way out!? :0
    Every time I play the dead air level on Expert I’m the only one to ever make it (except one time when one other person made it). My point is, my team usually never makes it all together on that one.

  • YaoGuaiSlayer

    Why ‘gang-raped?’ Why not ‘dog-piled?’ Would have gotten the point across just as well without being…disgusting.

  • Mygaffer

    Dog piled sounds stupid. Mobbed would have been better.

  • YaoGuaiSlayer

    Either dogpiled or mobbed would’ve been fine. Or maybe ‘main course in a feeding frenzy?’ That’s a bit long, though.

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