Movie Trivia

Aaah maturity.  XBL brings the sore loser out in everybody.

A dirty and squeaky vagina? What? I wish they’d do more to actually punish these morons. You mod, you’re permanently banned. Harass someone and it’s a temporary one. 

Awww. He is playing a zombie game to try and overcome his fear of the scaaaaaaaaaary woman bits! ^_^

 First they would need to come up with a way to keep people from just creating a brand new profile in under 5 minutes.

I’m not sure why anyone, let alone Dr Jones, would want to enter any vagina with those items.

I mean a map might be handy

“Samurai edge”?

And whit that message he confirmed that he’s a looser!

who cares if your a female? Lol made my day when i seen this though, ps3 all the way tho, crap box dies to often

I lol’d. Some of these messages are completely harmless. This message for example, i really don’t see how you could find this offensive. Bleh unfortunately I find that most of the comments found on this site aren’t too far from what’s being screen captured.

Because sexual and genital references are never offensive, right DAP?

LOL

Granted, it’s not dripping with malice as other missives featured on this site.  In fact, this one is rather silly.  Still, how can your imagination and/or empathy be so limited that you can’t see how someone would find it offensive? C’mon, man.

While first and foremost, it is silly. If you find something this silly offensive then you probably can’t function in society. I guess that answers the question of “ 
how can your imagination and/or empathy be so limited that you can’t see how someone would find it offensive.” Maybe I should have said “I really don’t see how you could find this ‘very’ offensive”. “Oh no he said i had a dirty vagina and that Indiana Jones needs a oil lantern samurai edge and a shotgun to explore it and that Godzilla was born from me!” Dirty vagina, slightly offensive, but I don’t think that should effect someone who knows that they really don’t.

Is there anything that can be said that is offensive?

So basically what you’re trying to say is “ugh gawd why can’t you silly wimmenz just get a sense of humor and learn to take a joke and stop doing something you enjoy if you can’t deal with someone harassing you” then?

Fuck off, little boy.

This isn’t helpful.

DAP is only disagreeing with us– he isn’t being belligerent or misogynistic about it.  Being defensive, disrespectful, and questionably misandrist does little but make all of us look like whiny assholes.

If you don’t like people with DAP’s attitude, then you should try being more persuasive.  There’s nothing that DAP said that indicates he’s unreasonable.  It seems to me he just needs to look at things from a new perspective.

Ogre, you really don’t want to be tossing around labels of “misandrist” on this site. FYI.

Are you threatening me?

I doubt that Sara is actually a misandrist.  Still, if some guy said, “Fuck off, little girl”, a flood of people wouldn’t think twice about calling him a misogynist.  I can easily see how someone could interpret what she said as hypocritical misandry.  Personally, I think it’s more likely she’s wounded and lashing out at things that resembles that which gave her her wounds.  Either way, it’s not a great way to go about life.
So that’s what I meant when I used “questionably” to describe “misandrist”.  I don’t understand your problem with it.

I prefer to think of it as cautioning you. You often say things which, to my reading, tread dangerously close to MRA territory. In this particular case, “misandrist” is a loaded term in a way in which “misogynist” is not, for precisely the same reason that hundreds of other societal constructs are not the same for women as for men. I would take it as a favor if you’d choose to err on the side of not telling women to refrain from responding to sexist insults.

“
 You often say things which, to my reading, tread dangerously close to MRA territory. ”

I had to look up what you meant by “MRA”.  I feel like advocating men’s rights is missing the point– honestly, the same way I thought feminism was missing the point.    It’s repeatedly explained to me that feminism is just about equality between the sexes, which is something I’m 100% for, but this sentiment is betrayed when someone is labeled a sexist just for disagreeing.

All that I’m about is getting folks to treat each other fairly.

““misandrist” is a loaded term in a way in which “misogynist” is not, for precisely the same reason that hundreds of other societal constructs are not the same for women as for men.”

Are trying to say that “misandrist” and “misogynist” aren’t equivalent the same way “cracker” and the “n-word” aren’t?  I suppose I could agree with that.  I think it’s much worse to be a misogynist.  If you’re a misandrist, who cares? They’re only fighting the corrupt oppressive power– they deserve to be hated.  I’ve never seen anyone take offense to the suggestion that they hate men.  Generally the reaction I’ve seen is a chuckle and they say something like, “No, I like men.. some men”.

A misogynist is someone who actively contributes to a sexist culture of oppression.   I hate these people. These people inspire violent thoughts in me.  They’re the bully, picking on the small guy.  They take what they want because it’s easy to.  They’re monsters.  And I get extremely offended when I get mistaken for one of them, and I know other people do.

Why do you think they’re different?

I’m trying to get in your head, and all that I can think of is that “it doesn’t matter if a man’s feelings gets hurt because he still get’s to be a man in a man’s world”.  That can’t be how you feel.

“ I would take it as a favor if you’d choose to err on the side of not telling women to refrain from responding to sexist insults.”

I didn’t tell her to not to respond to sexist insults.  I told her to be more persuasive.

And still, I don’t see where DAP was being sexist or intentionally insulting.

I think we should all be HAPPY and get along! Its just as easy to be nice as it is to be mean but being nice is MUCH MORE FUN! ^_^

Actually, there are unreasonable things in his posts – as in, he hasn’t thought things through/reasoned enough. But once he has, he’ll possibly see the what the big deal is about.

There’s a world of difference between finding something offensive and being incapacitated because of said offense. Functioning in society and being offended aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact, in cases such as this, the inherent goal is to make society better. Why accept offensive behavior simply because you can? Why settle for less, when you deserve more?

Also, don’t forget that these kinds of offenses are a part of a culture – this isn’t an isolated incident. even IF the original submitter never has been offended like this before, she knows that as a woman these are things she encounters because of gender. It affects outlook. If everybody I know that are like me are victims of offenses – and I am not – when you finally come to me and tell me something “slightly” offensive I take offense because I see a pattern.

Also, nowhere does it state HOW offended the submitter got – As a thinking and feeling human being I know that she can measure her responses to the level of offense given. That’s one of the many things we get to do in a society. Nowhere does it say that a victim respect the offender or worry if responding was indeed approriate. The burden is not on her – it’s on the person that did this.

“
as in, he hasn’t thought things through/reasoned enough. But once he has, he’ll possibly see the what the big deal is about. ”

And that’s essentially what I was saying.  Though I think it’s more to do with having a lack of appropriate information due to having a narrow perspective, but that largely goes hand in hand with the stuff you’re talking about.

People need to realize that being confrontational and abusive isn’t likely to cure him of his ignorance.

 Very well said, Alex.

I agree that confrontation doesn’t breed many good things, but even a confrontational attitude isn’t born in a vacuum. If I’m defensive about something it is probably because I’ve had to defend myself too often, that kind of thing. 

In situations like this context plays a huge role. And of course, let’s not forget that we all operate with the tools we’ve been given. If my entire life I’ve been told that moon rock is worth 50x as much as gold – I’m going to work with that until I’m told otherwise. That’s not to say this is a moon rock issue, but you literally work with what you got. You have no choice in it beyond curiosity and trying to add to your toolbox. 

But even so, you will never know more than you know. So, definitely, information is a huge key. There are other keys that play their part – curiosity, ability to connect with others, being able to identify commonalities regardless of superficial distances, etc.In my experience lack of appropriate information is what causes a narrow perspective, but my response is getting blurred here I think.

So my points in TLDR fashion:Even a caustic response may come from somewhere legitimate (having to constantly defend one’s belief’s, fear, being offended, plain tired of explaining oneself too many times – as such a thing illuminates a pattern that questions your right to think and feel a certain way).
Information or lack thereof informs us in all we do.

Heh. I think we agree everything.

Though I will add that while a caustic response can be understandable, it doesn’t make it appropriate.  And, in this case, it’s self-defeating and undermines the point of places like this, which hurts others.  It’s like there’s some people out there more interested in having something to complain about and/or something to hang their failures on, rather than actually working to resolve a social issue.

Our cause is righteous and the only way there is to take the higher road.  And so I encourage our side to be the better person.  I know that it’s hard, but I see it as a necessity.

This is the “tone argument” again, Ogre. I recognize that you have good intentions, but it comes from a position of privilege. Those not presently being oppressed have far more freedom to e civil.

There are so many things wrong with this.

Just because a person of more privilege calls for more civility in another’s arguments, doesn’t mean they don’t have a valid point.

Yes, I can see instances where a privileged person could site incivility as a means of dismissing an argument.  It’s true that just because someone is uncivil, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have a valid point.

Sara made no argument to derail–  she misrepresented what DAP said as an excuse to dismiss him rudely.

I made no attempt to silence her.  I wanted to encourage her to say something productive rather than destructive.  Anyone who really wants people to change for the better should feel the same way.

I am becoming incensed at the repeated accusations of privilege, especially since it’s used as a way to dismiss anything I say.  I get it– I’m a straight, white, male living in the USA.  That means I’m more likely to be privileged, but that doesn’t mean that I am.  And I’m not.  Not compared to most people.  I would easily trade my life for that of a woman who is happy and have family and friends who love them.  How does anything else matter before that?

You sit high on your unassailable throne, knowing all the answers.  You dismiss anyone idiotic enough to state something contrary to your infallible beliefs.  You are freed of the burden of thought and invalidate conflicting ideas with a mere link, in disregard of the link being applicable or not.
This is fanatical.

This is the shit that made me hate Christians and Atheists when I was a kid.  This is the kind of shit that makes me hate political parties.  This is the kind of thing that keeps me from calling myself a feminist.

No one knows everything.  Anyone who pretends to is nigh impossible to reach.  Especially in social issues where:
-It presumes to know what’s going on in the mind of any one person.
-Statistics are regularly cited (such women only making 3/4ths of what men make), with little interest in understanding why things are that way.  People are content with assuming, “it’s because men are sexist assholes”.
-It speaks for groups of people of conflicting values.  In the case of privilege between the sexes, it’s not hard to find women who don’t feel under-privileged compared to men.

It’s very hard for me to respect someone who can’t consider the idea that they might be wrong– that they might not be seeing the full picture.

I have to say, Sara doesn’t misrepresent what he said at all. Was it coming from a place of anger or frustration? Be weird if it didn’t. Was it rude? Maybe, but nothing forms in a vacuum. Either way, in reading both her statement and DAP’s – her interpretation seems to’ve crystallized his point. You actually pointed that out yourself in your response to DAP.

A call for civility isn’t wrong in and of itself, but it’s a matter of context, to my mind. Without contextualization everything is meaningless, right? Do I wag my finger at a victim for being angry, or do I listen to them and try to see the underlying cause? 

A civil tone doesn’t necessarily yield a civil message. DAP held a fairly nice tone – I use the term nice tone very generously – but I find that his message was very condescending, disrespectful, and above all – ignorant. The kind of ignorance that hopefully is the progenitor of the other negative traits evidenced in the message. Ignorance can be remedied. Maybe the other aspects will follow.

Also, as far as I’m concerned, the fact that you are white doesn’t automatically mean “this” or “that” to me. All it means, at the most, is that statistically in the US you have a better chance of reaching a position of privilege than I do, if we assume nothing but racial background. Such a wide sweep does not take into account things such as individual aptitude, family history, birthplace, place of living, and general damn dumb luck though.

Anyway – Indy is way too old for an adventure! The guy should clearly have referenced Shia Lebouf

 Aaaaaaaaanyway, about the post in question:
Whether you find it amusing or not isn’t really the issue. The point is, humorous or not, this post belongs on FatUglyorSlutty because he verbally attacked her gender. Not her playing ability or something broad like ‘your mom’ because he felt threatened, but something very specific, thereby relegating her to a group–a group that he attacked.

Insults come in all shapes and some of those shapes are thinly disguised with humor. Humor can be offensive too. Think big nosed jews or buck teeth asians or the way they used to draw african people before it became ‘in bad taste’. Its just another way of communicating hate and prejudice, right? Would you laugh at that kinda thing now? If yes, then he is probably the comedian for you. Great! Go pay a stand-up fee and enjoy.
This was unsolicited.
I don’t enjoy these types of messages when I get ‘em on XBL.
I suppose this one is funny, in a way. Or more probably funny in its absurdity. But um, its still targeting her for being a woman and joke or not, its a serious symptom of a larger societal problem. You can choose to laugh anything off, even if the insult is blatant in its directness. She chose to act instead of ignoring it, thereby adding to a less tolerant world for this kinda stuff. Good job! ^_^

I don’t play a lot of games online, but my male friends do constantly, and as far as I know none of them have received any kind of derogatory remarks that was outside of game performance – aka “you suck at this game” “You cheated” “GG asshat.” is the kind of thing they get all the time – but they certainly haven’t gotten any “You suxxör at this game so much cuz ur man-penis is blocking ur vision lol derp derp”

I agree that the absurdity makes it a genuine “wtf lol” but it’s definitely a part of a societal problem, you will get no disagreement from me on that. I wonder if a higher level of accountability would help out – less hiding behind tags and anonymity, being forced to own up to one’s statements etc…

”
Sara doesn’t misrepresent what he said at all. ”

Okay, lets look at this then:

“ugh gawd why can’t you silly wimmenz just get a sense of humor and learn to take a joke and stop doing something you enjoy if you can’t deal with someone harassing you”

DAP uses “you”, which really should mean he’s addressing the submitter specifically.  If this is the case, he’s speaking to an individual, not making a statement for a whole group.  Still, the way he’s talking it does seem like he’s addressing the community here.  The community here isn’t only women.  Sara is making the assumption that DAP is only addressing women.  It’s possible that he is, but we don’t know that from his comments.  It’s completely unfair to assume misogyny just because someone disagrees.

Furthermore, he doesn’t address the sense of humor of the people he’s addressing.  He said that he found it funny.  He said that he didn’t understand how people found it offensive.  It’s a leap of logic to say that he said women don’t have a sense of humor.  Again, perhaps he does feel that way, but we don’t know that from his comments.

And lastly, DAP doesn’t come close to insinuating that the people he’s addressing should stop playing games.

People are reading way too much into what he said.  Sara is tilting at a windmill– a condescending, ignorant windmill, but DAP isn’t the monster she’s and others perceiving him to be.  All DAP said is that he can’t understand how people are offended by much of what is posted here.

This is a part of a vicious cycle.  If you perceive everyone to be enemies, then you’ll live in a world completely surrounded by enemies. A healthy measure of paranoia and caution is wise, but this is self-defeating.

“Do I wag my finger at a victim for being angry, or do I listen to them and try to see the underlying cause? ”

I wasn’t waging my finger at her for being angry, I was wagging my finger at her for undermining efforts of positive social change.  She is clearly someone who doesn’t like the misogyny in the gaming culture.  Ostensibly, that would mean that she’s someone who would want the gaming culture to change.  Social change doesn’t happen by spitting venom.  Social change happens by being peaceful, vigilant, and visible.  And you don’t have to take my word for it– look at Ghandi or Martian Luther King Jr or anyone else who inspired social change.

I don’t know the details of Sara’s story, but I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that it essentially the same as most of the folks that come to this place.  She enjoys playing games, but encounters terrible people online who make misogynistic comments, which others her and probably makes her feel vulnerable, which in turn, makes her angry.  This is probably exasperated by the threads of sexism in society at large, where she has to contend with things like work place inequity and maneuvering around a “rape culture”.

I think it makes complete sense that Sara is angry.  That doesn’t make it appropriate for her to express that anger in the way she did.  This makes her angry statements more easy to forgive, but it doesn’t make them permissible.

“…but I find that his message was very condescending, disrespectful, and above all – ignorant.”

I see the condescension, though I will say that it’s sometimes hard to disagree with someone without sounding condescending, especially if the disagreement is about differences in perception or value.  DAP certainly could have tried harder at being more diplomatic, but I don’t think he was trying to belittle folks… He’s just naturally kind of an asshole.  In my optimism, I’d like to think DAP would reconsider his choice of words if he understood how they affected people.

I think DAP meant less disrespect than he appears to have.  I think this works much in the same way as the condescension in his words.

I certainly agree that his statements are born from ignorance.  And as you say, I would think that curing him of his ignorance will rid his speech of the tones of condescension and disrespect.

“ Such a wide sweep does not take into account things such as individual aptitude, family history, birthplace, place of living, and general damn dumb luck though.”

Exactly.

I also want to make it clear that I really didn’t mean that I had no privileges.  Clearly, I get to eat and have shelter every day.  I have a job.  I had almost no chance to be drafted as a child solider.  I didn’t live in a house with lead paint or asbestos. Et cetera.

I just don’t think that all my privileges add up to give me a clear overall advantage in American society, as many others insist.  And I’m particularly tired that accusations of privilege are used to dismiss and silence me.  Which is, you know, pretty ironic.  I mean, it would be hilarious if it didn’t make me so angry.

“my male friends do constantly, and as far as I know none of them have received any kind of derogatory remarks that was outside of game performance”

Dude, this one time I decided to play Carcassone on XBL.  I was randomly matched up with this guy who didn’t say anything the whole match.  He was ahead, but I was working on a massive castle, which would have made me competitive. Towards the end of the game he drew a tile which he could place to make the completion of my castle impossible.  He went to place it, but then he picked it up.. but then he placed it back, and picked it up again. It took me a second, but I realized he was teabagging me.  In Carcassone.  It was hilarious as it was humiliating.  The inevitable loss came quickly. The score was tallied up and I was trounced.  I said, “Good game”.  That’s when my opponent came on the mic for the first time, where he then he began to repeatedly shout, “YOU GOT RAPED!”  It was ridiculous.  I couldn’t help but to find it funny.  I also couldn’t help at getting very angry at the poor sportsmanship and the truth of the statement.  Then I laughed at how angry this no body made me.

I don’t play games much online.  I don’t have much fun winning or losing against people I don’t know.  So most of the games I play with other people, I tend to be in party chat with my friends.  So this is an experience I had with one of the few people I actually bothered communicating with online.

Though, back in the days of Counter Strike, everyone was calling each other fags.  And then you get the douche bags who drop the N-bomb like it was nothing.

“but they certainly haven’t gotten any “You suxxör at this game so much cuz ur man-penis is blocking ur vision lol derp derp”"

That’s probably because not many people would find it offensive, and would probably cause everyone else call that guy a fag.  These people try to hit people where it hurts.  For guys, taking digs at their masculinity is most effective.  Competition for many guys is about proving one’s masculinity and dominance, so berating someone for poor performance is a form of domination and emasculation.

Women tend to react strongly to misogynistic comments, so that’s part of the arsenal of the asshole.

“I wonder if a higher level of accountability would help out – less hiding behind tags and anonymity, being forced to own up to one’s statements etc…”

Blizzards was toying with that idea, but decided against it when they realized that it would just make it much easier for psychopaths to track down women in real life.

If you don’t think “you silly wimmenz” is intended to address women, I’m not sure we’re using the same language.

Heh, yeah, what language are you speaking? I don’t know of any language where “wimmenz” is a word.

Amusing observation aside, I must point out that DAP didn’t use the word “wimmenz”, “woman”, “girl”, or any other synonym for females. It was Sara I was quoting. She’s the one asserting that DAP was exclusively talking about women.

As I understand it, this comunity/site is made by women and from what I’ve seen a lot of women post or comment on this page? The “you” referred to in DAP’s post – therefore – is reasonably toward this community primarily? And he did use the terms “if you find something this silly offensive, you probably can’t function in society” – I’m paraphrasing slightly, but his post is there for review.

It seems like saying that somebody who finds this offensive can’t function in society translates pretty well into “wimmenz get humor or stay out” since the offense happened in a gaming situation.

But I agree that DAP didn’t use the term wimmenz either. As for Ghandi – We cannot know that he never got pissed off enough to express this in public, especiallly before he achieved fame. Ghandi is problematic because his status is somehwere between man who achieved social change and legend. It gets hard to sort out what he truly said or didn’t say.

Good point on the emasculation aspect, hadn’t thought of that. I wonder if the impact of using genital slurs toward men would change if women used it constantly and there were noticeably more women playing the games than men? It might also tie in to our general social structures too of course, I am curious though.

The guy that said you got raped was definitely adding more than just “you suck at this game” – it was obvious emasculation using sexual terms. I wonder how it would feel if every person one lost a game to did that. I’m not saying that every woman gets that everytime, and indeed I don’t know to what extent it happens – that’s why I’m here among other places – but I wonder if the impact of “you got raped” would feel different to “you suck at this game” if you hear “you got raped” everytime. Or even “The reason you suck at this game is because you are a man. You just don’t have the capacity to become really good at this game. Nice try though, Indy.”

That’s terrifying with the Blizzard initiative toward accountability. So, clearly a game is only “just a game” until somebody stabs you with cold steel over a +4 frostbite sword of unholy vorpal doom.

“As I understand it, this comunity/site is made by women and from what I’ve seen a lot of women post or comment on this page ”

Three women and a dude. Jon Rosebaugh (listed as inklesspen on the staff page) is the most active in the comments and I believe he does the technical work for the site.  GTZ does most of the actual posting of submissions.  Jaspir’s and likeOMGitsFEDAY’s roles seem more fluid– they contribute their own experiences and I presume they have creative input at least.

So, yeah, the staff is 75% women.  And I’d believe that it’s mostly women visiting this site, though there are plenty of men given the amount of comments they leave.  

If you ask the staff, they’ll tell you that this site isn’t just for women.  It’s for anyone who wants to see gender inequity banished.  You don’t even have to necessarily be female to make a submission.

However, I know that isn’t the popular perception of this place.  Many people come here assuming that this place is ladies-only.  It’s quite possible that DAP made the same assumption.

So, yeah, it’s plausible that when DAP said “you”, he was referring to the community, which he assumes is nothing but women.  Still, even if he thought everyone here are women, I don’t necessarily see him speaking to women as a whole.  So even if I concede that he’s addressing only women, it’s still very plausible he’s only addressing the women who are offended by that he deems shouldn’t be offensive.

So, the difference here is that this would make the gender of those he is addressing is ultimately irrelevant.  He thinks those who are offended by this stuff is silly– if they happened to be all women, it would just be coincidence.

If I can read a sentence multiple ways, I try to read it as the less offensive version… Not unless I have something more concrete to give context to what was said.

What we know what is wrong with what DAP said is that he feels he can make callous judgments on what is or isn’t offensive.

“ As for Ghandi – We cannot know that he never got pissed off enough to express this in public”

I would call someone a liar if they said anyone, including Ghandi, never publicly expressed their anger.  We’re all human.  We all make mistakes.  But they’re still mistakes and sometimes we need people to call us out on it.  As a movement, we can’t normalize bad behavior, especially if it undercuts our message.

“I wonder how it would feel if every person one lost a game to did that.”

Well, I guess we can’t say for sure.  Though, I feel like he only got to me because its a kind of obscure port of a boardgame of thoughtfulness and strategy (and luck!)– it just caught me off guard.  If it happened when I was playing Halo or GoW, I really feel like I’d be far more apathetic.  ”Stop the presses! There’s an asshole playing Call of Duty!”

What stung me the most from that Carcossone encounter is that I let him affect me– that I let my guard down.