Friendship

Draqing shows us that making friends is what really matters. <3

Draqing

  • Anonymous

    I’ll probably be chastised for this, but oh well. I don’t quite see the reasoning behind this submission. To me, it doesn’t fit in with the overall scope of the site. It isn’t multiple harassing requests, it says nothing horrible about the person it was sent to ( unless you consider child a horrible insult). It was one request that may or may not have been because you’re a woman.

    Overall, I just don’t feel this belongs here.

  • Anonymous

    Not everything we post is straight-up no-shades-of-grey sexual harassment. Sometimes there’s just funny posts. :) And sometimes there’s borderline posts, where we can all use the comments to examine the general social consensus on things like “wait, so after denying that a player could possibly get this game thing, you want to be her friend after she said she’s a woman?” After getting many friend requests just for being a woman, where does one personally evaluate a friend request after this kind of exchange? Does a game dev employee think any differently from getting random “BE MY FRIEND” requests for being a game employee than a woman does for being a woman? I think elements of both might be at play, here. :)

    Some folks think that companies should use our site as some sort of auto-ban initiation project. This is why that is silly — I like the borderline discussions, to help us all figure out where our differences in opinion lie. Thanks for your comment! :)

  • Anonymous

    I can understand that. And I thank you for not coming down on me like a ton of bricks for daring to question the sites content like some other sites might be apt to do. 

    I just feel as if this type of submission hurts the overall premise of the site, and gives fuel to the people who scream ” oh those women are just overreacting! Just look at this submission. You can’t even send an IW employee a request without it being considered harassment!”

    It’s your site of course, and you are free to post whatever you feel like posting. I love this site, and a few submissions I don’t agree with isn’t going to chase me away. I just don’t think giving the people who think women are just overreacting more ammunition is a good idea.

    In any case, I thank you for the discussion, and am happy I wasn’t instantly labeled “troll” for dissenting opinion. Have a nice day!

  • http://profiles.google.com/etchainer Etchainer Bethune

     I don’t feel this hurts the site’s basic premise. The thinking is almost always the same: “Is Woman? Act Different.”

    Sexual harassment is merely the dark side of misogynistic behavior, and it can be funny. But silly, benign behavior like this is still fundamentally sexist (or at least appears to be), and still wrong — just not harmful — and we can laugh at it all the same. :)

    Besides, it’s nice to lighten up from the more overt stuff sometimes, isn’t it?

  • Anonymous

    I agree with @WonderlandsMadHero:disqus – that this post doesn’t belong here.  It’s context is too ambiguous.  We don’t know exactly what the submitter said to Draqing, so it’s possible that the phrasing and tone could have been interpreted differently from what was intended by the submitter.  The “Ha I Don’t think so child” itself, to me, comes across as more humorous than anything, rather than really being condescending and dismissive.  I imagine it said in a voice of a poor southern woman.

    I can also imagine that Draqing sent the “child” response near-reflexively, feeling the chances of encountering someone who worked at IW being functionally impossible.  Then I can imagine, after hitting the send button, Draqing thought more about the IW title, and realized that maybe the submitter isn’t lying, so Draqing resolved sending the friend request before getting the “I’m a woman” response.  Only four minutes passed between Draqing’s message and friend request.

    OR perhaps Draqing felt that if someone was willing to be honest about being a woman, then maybe she wasn’t lying about working at IW.  Who knows?  We don’t.

    It isn’t fair to assume anything that may possibly might somehow be sexist to be sexist.  It certainly isn’t fair to the person being called sexist, if they aren’t. And anyone who’s posted on this site is going to be considered sexist, because that’s the image that this site projects to the rest of the internet.  

    Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, it isn’t fair to the victims of sexism.  It can only make the world a worse place for these people if they see sexism where there is none.

    And last point: we don’t even know that Draqing is a dude.  The submitter doesn’t even seem to know, as they keep using “them” and “they” to refer to Draqing.

    No, wait, actual last point: if this submission was posted just for the humor, then Draqing’s name doesn’t need to be here.

  • Anonymous

    But you have no evidence of this being a “is woman? act different.” scenario. Again, for all we know from the info given here, he could have read the reply, and decided “this may actually be an IW employee. It’d be cool to have a company person on my list. Request sent”.

    I’ll admit that it more than likely is that type of scenario, but we cannot decisively come to that conclusion with what has been provided here. We simply cannot condemn every single infraction that may be interpreted as sexist, but is not conclusively so, or we run the risk of becoming those tinfoil hat people seeing conspiracies everywhere they look.

  • http://profiles.google.com/etchainer Etchainer Bethune

    Sure, that is a possible situation, but I expect that the “child” presumption that Draqing made is due to voice chat — it’s very common for men to assume a high pitched voice is a child over a woman, especially in the context of a skilled player (ie: boys are better players, so a good player is male) and if they participate in non-feminine behavior (like trash talking and what not, or otherwise don’t separate themselves from other players and distinguish themselves as female).

    Ultimately, even if Draqing’s reasoning was that he wanted an IW employee in his friends list, his approach is still pretty strange.

    However, your choice of language (“condemn”, “decisively”) here leads me to believe you are reading a lot more in to this. I can’t speak for all readers, (though I believe gtzfuos would agree) but we’re not trying to vilify this guy, or anyone in particular. This site is about drawing attention to weird behavior so that we could, as a community, discuss it, laugh at it, and maybe help all gamers be more inclusive.

    Yeah, there’s some awful people posted here, but I don’t think the intent was ever to imply that all people posted here awful.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kroscovius Krista Roscovius

    I think this absolutely belongs here. Draqing is being nothing short of a troll, which is what this site is really about (whether the offenders are male, female, child or adult, they all get posted here).

  • Anonymous

    How is he being a troll? Simply by calling someone a child? I probably would have done the same. Automatically disbelieving someone is an employee of a game company is the smart thing to do. Take a look over at whywasibanned.com, and look through their history. Many many posts are of people being banned because they’re claiming things such as “I’m an employee at IW, I’m an xblpet, I work for Treyarch” etc.

    My first reaction would also be to automatically assume its some 12 yr old trying to look cool, or worse trying to gain an advantage somehow. Does that make me a troll?

    And while the intent may not have been to villify this guy, it is exactly what happens. If people talk about FUoS elsewhere, it’s always about how you see the worst of the worst posted here. It may have not been the intent, but that is how the gaming populace sees it as far as I can tell from the gaming sites I visit.

    I think you guys are reading a bit too much into my posts here. I’m not demanding this be taken down, or an apology be issued or anything crazy like that. I’m only expressing that I don’t think it belongs. As I said before, it is your site, and I love coming here pretty much daily. A few posts I don’t agree with aren’t going to chase me away.

  • Anonymous

    Ha. Thanks, WMH.  It seems like with you here I don’t need to bother posting stuff myself.

    Although I would like to urge again for FUoS to remove references to Draqing’s name.  Think of how you would like your own name posted on a site like this.  Think of the submissions by the women who were harassed because they were lucky enough to be in the XBL Spotlight.

  • http://twitter.com/boeboelord Boe2

    Downright vulgar stuff is being posted on this site. This particular post does not belong here indeed.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kroscovius Krista Roscovius

    You can assume whatever you want – doesn’t make it necessary to take a condescending attitude and call someone a child. If he didn’t believe her, the mature thing to do would to simply not respond. Or keep the conversation light, or change the topic. Or just play along. Any of those would have been infinitely more acceptable then replying with a snotty, “Ha don’t think so child.” Hell, an ‘lol, yeah right’ wouldn’t have even been as bad. At least the lol denotes amusement. It doesn’t carry a level of scorn like the actual post does.

    It’s rude, trollish behavior, and that absolutely belongs here.

    “My first reaction would also be to automatically assume its some 12 yr
    old trying to look cool, or worse trying to gain an advantage somehow.
    Does that make me a troll?”

    If you replied with the same snarky attitude this kid did, then yes. If you simply don’t believe them and move on, then no.

  • Anonymous

    I wanted to give this thread a couple days to see if it came to a major consensus. I don’t really see one yet. Good discussions, though. :) Although some of those who are arguing for Gamertag removal are also including the same Gamertag in your posts, which is also crawled by Google…

    I generally agree that it’s likely that he thought our submitter was a child due to female voice — because I see this mentioned by women a lot. (It would look tacky to do so, but that should really be bolded, underlined, italicized and capslocked. It happens very often.) That common interaction that women experience online also has echoes of how women are talked to like children.
    I also agree that being on FUoS isn’t some kind of crazy universal condemnation, but a reference point for great discussions like this. I think that the lack of consensus indicates this might be one of those examples that comes from perspective and experience with previous similar interactions. In the same way that some folks think that this one comes off just awkward and “awwww”, some folks have different prior experiences with “voice” requests that mean they hear something different. (We’ve definitely posted a few of those requests.) When a woman sees yet another mention of her being a “child” followed by an immediate friend request perhaps she sees something different.

    Thanks for the respectful disagreement, everyone! :) It’s unfortunate that WonderlandsMadHero isn’t wrong in how dissent is sometimes handled online. :/ 

  • http://twitter.com/northswainglow Rosa

    Totally belongs here IMHO. The person hears their voice, sees their IW title, and rather than assuming “hey that lady is clearly an employee!” they instead think “Well since there are no women on XBL and certainly not making games, that person is clearly a child, and since they’re clearly a child and not a woman, there is no possible way for them to get an IW title.”

    They use the opposite of Occam’s Razor to get the most roundabout explanation to a question because they can’t imagine a female games employee, acts sort of like a jerk using their stupid circumstantial evidence, and then, when proven wrong and given the obvious answer, they immediately want to be friends.

  • Anonymous

    “Although some of those who are arguing for Gamertag removal are also including the same Gamertag in your posts, which is also crawled by Google… ”

    Haha.  Yes, I knew I was doing that.  I suppose I could be wrong, but I don’t think having a word more than once on a single page makes it more likely for Google to find it– the damage was already done.  I was also trying to avoid assigning a gender to the person-who-interacted-with-the-submitter, but the English language doesn’t have neutral pronouns for that and I find it unwieldy to keep saying “(s)he” or “person-who-interacted-with-the-submitter” over and over again.

    I will gladly edit my comments if the post is censored. Though, they say the internet doesn’t forget and maybe this page has already been backed-up somewhere.  Perhaps this is a bell that can’t be unrung.  Still, I wouldn’t mind seeing more discretion in the future.

  • Anonymous

    I think you’re interpreting the situation differently from everyone else.  This how this event is generally interpreted:

    Antagonist sees IW tag associated with Submitter and asks Submitter how they got it.

    Submitter tells Antagonist that she got it for working at IW.

    Antagonist calls bullshit.

    Submitter mentions that she’s a woman.

    Antagonist tries to Friend Submitter because she’s female.

  • Anonymous

    I really don’t feel that ”Ha don’t think so child” is offensive at all.  It feels like a light-hearted response to me.  I really have to stretch my imagination to think of someone who could use that phrase to be intentionally snotty and condescending.

    And how is the mature thing to do is to simply not respond?  I have observed that in society, when someone want to break conversation, they say something indicating such.  On the internet, that’s even more important because you can’t see the person intentionally ignoring you– it could just be they haven’t gotten back to you.  So you force the other person to decide how long they’re going to wait for you to respond.  How is that mature?  That seems really selfish to me.

    A troll is someone who is intentionally trying to anger someone else for sake of doing so.  While I suppose it’s possible that D is doing that, I feel there’s more evidence that D isn’t.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/3PN2QS3J4W6F46ENBCMON3SJLA Krista

     Nope – if you want to follow proper etiquette, in a situation like this it’d be best not to antagonize the person any longer, which means you don’t reply. You see that sort of advice handed out by etiquette mavins the world over. If you’re in a face-to-face conversation with someone, it’s different. If they get increasingly angry they could harm you. But online, where any sort of further conversation is likely to be met with increased trolling, name-calling, etc, simply not answering is key. No reason for you to sink down to their level.

    The same holds true in forums, IM and message rooms. You always hear ‘don’t feed the troll’ for a reason.

    Also, note that I made other recommendations to the antagonist then just ‘silence’. A few other recommendations, in fact.

  • Anonymous

    You’re right.  I’ve reconsidered and I think it would have been alright for D to say nothing at all in this situation.  Although I would have sent some kind of acknowledgement that I had received the submitter’s answer, such as, “Ah.”

    Still, I feel what D responded with aligned with “keep the conversation light”.  I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

    I think you switched who we were talking about with regards to who should have been silent, so I’m not going to respond directly to that stuff.

    I’m compelled to say, though, that what I consider proper etiquette is to treat others as I want to be treated– I care little for what books say about it.  

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/3PN2QS3J4W6F46ENBCMON3SJLA Krista

    You know – I did actually switch who we were talking about, at some point. Then I thought about it, and figured it worked for either person, anyway ^^ Such is the risk you take when you chat via a forum, I guess. I tend to forget what I was talking about in the first place.

    As you said, we can agree to disagree :) 

  • http://twitter.com/TheQuietQuirk Yuki

    Just going to hop in and say this. Whenever I’ve played online multiplayer games and someone has treated me like a child, or suggests that I am despite clear indication that I’m not, it rubs me the wrong way. As in, “Kill it with fire!” kind of irritation. In my experience, it is often said condescendingly, sneeringly. And then when they find out I’m female, suddenly they’re like, “Oh, hey. Wanna be friends?” (paraphrased from usual incidents of lazy chatspeak). Sometimes it’s said lewdly/after lewd intentions/followed by lewd remarks, sometimes it’s not. 

    But I think it’s fair to say that the tone is often not complimentary, and the overall atmosphere of the conversation is one where you would most certainly be reasonably miffed, if not outright offended. Like, all of a sudden, because I’m a girl, everything’s okay?

  • http://twitter.com/TheQuietQuirk Yuki

    It’s really not a stretch of the imagination when you deal with people who talk condescendingly to you all the time. The “ha” and “child” combined together make it sound condescending and snotty– mostly because when people call someone “child” these days, it’s to talk down at them. It’s like calling a grown man “boy”, or saying, “Hello, little girl” to a grown woman.

  • Anonymous

    I understand how it can be condescending and offensive.  I just can also see how it easily might not be.  I’m trying to encourage folks give people the benefit of the doubt.

  • http://twitter.com/Poadhf9 Johnny Faggot

    This is not even offensive you butthurt piece of shit.

  • http://twitter.com/T0X1cD3m0n Alex Camargo

    Well he’s inlove XD

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